On Obedience and Dissent Within the Catholic Church (Part I)

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Christ is the Physician, We Are The Sick

^30 The Pharisees and their scribes complained to his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

^31 Jesus said to them in reply, “Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but the sick do.

^32 I have not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners.”

I think one of the things Christians need to keep in mind is that, when Christ says He has not come to call the righteous but the sinners, we must recognize we are the sinners who need Him, and not the perfect who are already worthy as they are.  We may be tempted to think we are righteous, but we are not.

All of us are tainted by the effects of original sin, and by the sinful acts we do of our own choosing.  In some cases, it may be easy to see.  The tax collectors realizes he is a sinner and prays for forgiveness (see Luke 18:13).  In other cases it is not easy to see.  The self-righteous instead boasts before God (Luke 18:11-12).

The False Dichotomy

We unfortunately have the tendency to create a false either-or situation in our minds:

1. If I am [a good person] I will not be [like this tax collector]. (If [A] then [B])
2. I am not [like this tax collector] (not [B])
3. Therefore I am [a good person] (Therefore [A])

The problem of course is that just because we may not be "like this tax collector" does not make us a good person.  In other words, if we use Hitler as the standard of evil, we all look good in comparison but if Hitler is not the standard of evil, but rather one example of evil, we may find that none of us can take a righteous attitude in what we do.

"Bad News Boys…"

There is an old joke which runs as follows:

A priest was hearing confessions for a mining camp.  The first miner walks in and the priest asks him to confess his sins.

The miner scratches his head and says "Well I don't know… I never killed anyone."

The exasperated priest tells him, "Get out of here and make an examination of conscience!"

The miner exits and sees the line of miners waiting for their turn.  "Go home boys!  He's only taking murderers today!"

Now of course, the priest was not only hearing the confession of murderers.  Rather he was telling the miner to consider what he had done or failed to do which needed reconciliation with God, and not judge himself in comparison to murderers.

Yet too often, we look at our relation with God with the consideration of what we haven't done compared to others… not in the sense that they have done more out of love for God in comparison to ourselves but rather that we haven't acted as bad as them, so we must be good.

We should remember Psalm 50:

^7 “Listen, my people, I will speak; Israel, I will testify against you; God, your God, am I.

^8 Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you, nor for your holocausts, set before me daily.

^9 I need no bullock from your house, no goats from your fold.

^10 For every animal of the forest is mine, beasts by the thousands on my mountains.

^11 I know every bird of the heavens; the creatures of the field belong to me.

^12 Were I hungry, I would not tell you, for mine is the world and all that fills it.

^13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?

^14 Offer praise as your sacrifice to God; fulfill your vows to the Most High.

^15 Then call on me in time of distress; I will rescue you, and you shall honor me.”

^16 But to the wicked God says: “Why do you recite my commandments and profess my covenant with your lips?

^17 You hate discipline; you cast my words behind you!

^18 When you see thieves, you befriend them; with adulterers you throw in your lot.

^19 You give your mouth free rein for evil; you harness your tongue to deceit.

^20 You sit maligning your own kin, slandering the child of your own mother.

^21 When you do these things should I be silent? Or do you think that I am like you? I accuse you, I lay the charge before you.

The Other Side of the Coin

On the other side of this coin is the claim that because we aren't doing any worse than anyone else, we are fine as we are.  God has commanded in Exodus 23:2 ^ Neither shall you allege the example of the many as an excuse for doing wrong (in other translations it can be rendered You shall not follow a multitude to do evil).  In the New Testament, Jesus says in Luke 17:

^8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, ^cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire.

^9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.

Going along to get along is not what we are to do.  Christ makes use of some graphic imagery to show the lengths we are to take to avoid sin.  If we would not cut off our foot or gouge out our eye, should we not take steps to avoid sin?  If "the crowd" embraces sin as good, ought we not to avoid "the crowd" when it seeks to lead us to do evil?

Neither can we appeal to the bad example of those who do not practice what they preach.  Jesus, in Matthew 23 says in verses 2-3, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.

Are there individual priests and even bishops who fail to behave as they ought?  Indeed there are, and they will answer for the things they will not repent of.  For Christ says in Luke 17: 1-2, "Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur.  It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin."

However, the personal sins of an individual priest or bishop do not justify our own sins.  Nor does it justify the disobedience of the Church in one area because a priest or bishop is disobedient in another.

Completing the Circle

Thus we can see that both the disdaining of others while ignoring our own sins, and the thinking we are no worse than others so our sins don't matter are attitudes which contradict the teachings of Christ.  He has come to call the sinners, not the righteous.  If we think we are good because we are "not like them" or if we think we are good because we "only do what everyone else is doing," we are behaving self-righteously, and refusing to let Jesus, the Divine Physician, heal our infirmities.

So let us cease to think of ourselves as some sort of "elect" who have it made, and instead recognize we are sinners who daily must rely on Christ to strengthen and sustain us.

Chronological Snobbery

Introduction

Definition of Snob:

a person who has an exaggerated respect for high social position or wealth and who looks down on those regarded as socially inferior.

Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

There is a tendency in modern times to look at the past with disdain, and to assume that something of the past is of no value simply because of the age of the observation.  CS Lewis describes this in his book, Surprised by Joy, when he says:

Barfield never made me an Anthroposophist, but his counterattacks destroyed forever two elements in my own thought. In the first place he made short work of what I have called my "chronological snobbery," the uncritical acceptance of the intellectual climate common to our own age and the assumption that whatever has gone out of date is on that account discredited. You must find why it went out of date. Was it ever refuted (and if so by whom, where, and how conclusively) or did it merely die away as fashions do? If the latter, this tells us nothing about its truth or falsehood. From seeing this, one passes to the realization that our own age is also "a period," and certainly has, like all periods, its own characteristic illusions. They are likeliest to lurk in those widespread assumptions which are so ingrained in the age that no one dares to attack or feels it necessary to defend them. (p207-208)

The Effective Assumptions of Chronological Snobbery

The argument of Chronological Snobbery tends to run as follows:

1. It is argued that A implies B.
2. A implies B is an old argument, dating back to the times when people also believed C.
3. C is clearly false.
4. Therefore, A does not imply B.

Because we have an exaggerated respect for the scientific data we know today, we look down on people from earlier periods of time as being mentally inferior.  I suppose many might believe this today, but I'd suspect Socrates and St. Thomas Aquinas probably had superior intellects to most people who disdain them today.  They might not have known the scientific data of today, but there is no doubt that had they lived today, this modern data would have deepened their arguments, not led them to hold the opposite of what they held when alive.

Of course this brings us to the major problem of Chronological Snobbery: The disdaining of the belief in God and in miracles based on our incrementally increased knowledge over the past

Scientific Data and Truth

Chronological Snobbery assumes, that because we have more scientific data available today (due to the advances in the past), it means the society which did not have access to the scientific data we have now were basically "dumb as rocks" and whatever they claimed to have observed could not be true, especially if they spoke of a Theophany, or of an action by God, it must have been an event which had a natural cause, and the ancients did not know it.

However, we need to recognize that something that is true today could be known in the past, even if it was known with less detail.  The fact that ancients believed some things we obviously know to be false now does not indicate everything they believed was false.  The ancient world may have believed in Geocentrism for example, but that belief did not make untrue the other things which they held, such as Geometry.

In other words, just because ancients did not know some things were true, does not mean they had no knowledge of truth.  The claim that it did is essentially Scientism, holding that only that which can be established scientifically, ignoring all other forms of knowledge.  (The paradox of scientism is that one cannot establish it scientifically).

An Reductio ad absurdum for Chronological Snobbery

Let's envision a time in the 23rd century, where society has changed, and the world is a meritocracy.  Those with genetic advantages in the mental field are given positions of authority and power.  Those who lack are relegated to doing menial jobs, essentially the property of those who have.  Now, lets assume that a person comes forward, and brings up writings against slavery from the 19th century as showing arguments as to why the current system ought not to be tolerated.

Would it be valid to negate his arguments on the grounds that "people back in the 20th century believed [X], therefore they had no idea what they were talking about on slavery"?

Chronological Snobbery Today

Yet, that is what passes for argument today.

1. Medieval People believed in God and Miracles (Medieval people believed [A])
2. They also believed in Bleeding as a medical practice (They also believed [B])
3. They were wrong on Bleeding (They were wrong on [B])
4. Therefore they were wrong on God and Miracles (Therefore they were wrong on [A])

The problem, of course, is that Medieval people being wrong on [B] has no bearing on whether they were wrong on [A].

A Variant of this Error: The Ancients "Didn't Know" About Natural Phenomenon

Because of this assumption, we often assume (as I said in the beginning) that ancient peoples were "dumb as rocks" about natural phenomena, and assumed natural phenomena were the acts of gods.  In modern times, we assume that because there is a natural cause for these things, the belief in gods must be attributing a supernatural cause to the natural.  However, the ancient Christian author Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215), in his Stromata, wrote on superstitions over "ill omens" this way:

It was a clever remark of Antiphon, who (when one regarded it as an ill omen that the sow had eaten her pigs), on seeing her emaciated through the niggardliness of the person that kept her, said, Congratulate yourself on the omen that, being so hungry, she did not eat your own children.

“And what wonder is it,” says Bion, “if the mouse, finding nothing to eat, gnaws the bag? ”For it were wonderful if (as Arcesilaus argued in fun) “the bag had eaten the mouse.”

Diogenes accordingly remarked well to one who wondered at finding a serpent coiled round a pestle: “Don’t wonder; for it would have been more surprising if you had seen the pestle coiled round the serpent, and the serpent straight.”

For the irrational creatures must run, and scamper, and fight, and breed, and die; and these things being natural to them, can never be unnatural to us.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. II : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. Fathers of the second century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) (529). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

In other words, the educated ancients were quite aware of natural causes for things, and did not possess the superstition the modern with chronological snobbery claims all ancients held.  CS Lewis, in speaking of miracles, had written about the Virgin Birth of Christ as such:

The idea that the progress of science has somehow altered this question is closely bound up with the idea that people in ‘olden times’ believe in them 'because they didn't know the Laws of Nature. Thus you will hear people say "The early Christians believed that Christ was the son of a virgin. but we know that this is a scientific impossibility.” Such people seem to have an idea that belief in miracles arose at a period when men were so ignorant of the course of nature that they did not perceive a miracle to be contrary to it. A moment's thought shows this to be nonsense and the story of the Virgin Birth Is a particularly striking example. When St. Joseph discovered that his fiancée was going to have a baby, he not unnaturally decided to repudiate her. Why? Because he knew just as well as any modem gynaecologist that in the ordinary course of nature women do not have babies unless they have lain with men. No doubt the modern gynaecologist knows several things about birth and begetting which St Joseph did not know. But those things do not concern the main point—that a virgin birth is contrary to the course of nature. And St Joseph obviously knew that. In any sense in which it is true to say now, 'The thing is scientifically impossible,’ he would have said the same: the thing always was, and was always known to be, impossible unless the regular processes of nature were, in this particular case, being overruled or supplemented by something from beyond nature When St Joseph finally accepted the view that his fiancées pregnancy was due not to unchastity but to a miracle, he accepted the miracle as something contrary to the known order of nature.

The error of Chronological snobbery asserts that because they did not know in the past what we know now, they therefore knew nothing and thus attributed to supernatural causes things of nature.  But we can see this was not believed in the time of the Old Testament, as we can see in Genesis 38:24 where it says "About three months later, Judah was told that his daughter-in-law Tamar had played the harlot and was then with child from her harlotry."  Sounds very much like knowledge of where babies came from.

Conclusion

Essentially, the argument from chronological snobbery is to assume that, because the ancients did not have knowledge of cells or atoms, they had no knowledge at all and therefore an appeal to an old source has no validity because of its age.  However this is not logical.  A lack of knowledge on topic [A] does not mean a lack of knowledge on topic [B].  Nor does increased knowledge in the present on topic [A]mean no knowledge in the past on topic [A].  We might have radar and other things to help us with advanced knowledge of storms, but this does not mean the ancient sailor or farmer had no knowledge of weather.

To assume that the ancients believed in God because they had no knowledge of science is false.  It is also false to assume that because an idea is old, it is untrue.  These are a priori assumptions of one who rejects belief in God or miracles (I say "or" because not all who deny miracles also deny God… we do have Modernists who reject miracles yet seem to have some sort of belief in God)

It is not the newness or age of the knowledge which is important, but whether it is true that matters.

Thought for the Day: Contradictions?

When it comes to all the people out there who love to point to so-called examples of contradiction in the Scriptures, or claims that the Church contradicts the Bible, has it never occurred to them there might in fact already be an explanation out there, which they might try to look up before posting?

If You're Against Oil Excavation, Don't Excavate Oil: Pelosi's Ironic Position

Remember Nancy Pelosi, with all her arguments as to why she couldn't work to oppose abortion… how it was an issue of pushing one's beliefs on someone else?  How she said:

"I have some concerns about the church's position respecting a woman's right to choose," Pelosi responds. "I am a practicing Catholic, although they're probably not too happy about that. But it is my faith."

"I practically mourn this difference of opinion because I feel what I was raised to believe is consistent with what I profess, and that is that we are all endowed with a free will and a responsibility to answer for our actions," she continues. "And that women should have that opportunity to exercise their free will."

The irony is, when it comes to the Cap and Trade and energy conservation, Pelosi has said:

As you may know about me, I am fairly agnostic about the means to the end in terms of what mechanism is used. What we want, though, is to have a result. The job that the bill must do is have a result that we reduce our dependence on foreign oil as a national security issue; that we reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, wherever they originate, as a health and environmental issue; that we proceed with innovation so that we can be number one, continue to be number one in the world in innovation, competitiveness, by creating new green jobs for the future.

It is a defense, a security issue, a health issue, an environmental issue, it is an economic issue, and it is a moral issue for us to honor the obligation we have to pass this planet on to future generations intact. And if you believe, as I do, that it is also that this is God's beautiful creation, we have a moral responsibility to preserve it.

So, what if I'm pro-choice on strip mining?  On Nuclear Waste in Yucca Mountain?  What if I think we should turn the Alaska Wildlife Preserve into a parking lot for the oil exploitation?  What if I think we should expand oil excavation, not diminish it?

Why do we have a "moral responsibility" to preserve creation, but not the "moral responsibility" to protect life?  Why is it ok to invoke God for the latter, but not the former?  Why should people have the freedom to abort, but not to do what they want with environmental issues on their own property?

This is Pelosi's inconsistency, her hypocrisy.  She cannot refuse her religious obligation when it comes to a topic she disagrees with, while invoking it on a topic she likes and avoid the label of hypocrite.

So, how would Pelosi respond to these (slightly reworded) slogans after the BP debacle?

1. Pro-Choice (on Oil Excavation)!
2. Don't force your environmentalism on me!
3. Oil Excavation should be a decision between a CEO and His stockholders!
4. We don't know when pollution begins!
5. If you're Opposed to Oil Excavation, Don't Excavate!
6. My Land, My Choice!
7. I'm Personally Opposed to Oil Excavation, but I don't want to Force My Beliefs on Others!
8. Trust Oil Execs!
9. Keep Your Rosaries off my Oil Wells!
10. Against Oil Excavation?  Walk!
11. Oil Execs should have that opportunity to exercise their free will.

All of these are pro-abortion slogans, slightly reworded except the last which is Pelosi's own statement with "Women" replaced by "Oil execs."  Like the pro-abortion slogans, all of these are guilty of the same error: Saying something which affects others is only a matter of personal choice, and that those who are opposed have no say in the matter.

Either Pelosi is a anti-choice (on oil) zealot, or she needs to seriously rethink her reasoning.  if Pelosi wants to invoke God and mention her Catholicism, she must be consistent in her behavior.  She may be quite sincere in her wanting to clean up the environment, but she is blind to the irony of her behavior.

The Traditions of Men

One of the more annoying misinterpretation of Scripture is that of Matthew 15:1-8, which reads:

^{1 }Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,

^2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? ^They do not wash (their) hands when they eat a meal.”

^3 He said to them in reply, “And why do you break the commandment of God ^for the sake of your tradition?

^4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’

^{5 }But you say, ‘Whoever says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is dedicated to God,”

^6 need not honor his father.’ You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

^7 Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said:

^8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me;

^9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’”

The argument put forth is:

1. [Jesus] condemned [traditions]
2. The [Catholic Church] promotes [Tradition]
3. Therefore [Jesus] condemns the [Catholic Church].

This is to entirely miss the point of the Scripture reading.

History and Context

The Pharisees, in Jesus time, had their own code of laws which were put on the same level as the Torah, indeed claimed that one could only follow the Torah through their interpretation, and the one who violated the rules of the Pharisees were considered as one who broke the Torah.

Jesus, in opposing the Pharisees, pointed out that these laws were focused on the legalism, and ignored the intent of the Law.  They would pay tithes on the very small plants mint, cumin and dill (See Matt 23:23) in observance of Lev 27:30 and Deut 14:22–23, but they were missing the point, by neglecting "judgment and mercy and fidelity."  They would strain the gnat (the gnat was the smallest of the unclean animals) pouring what they were to drink through a cloth to avoid accidentally swallowing one, but Jesus describes them as swallowing the camel, again missing the big picture (see Matt 23:24).

In other words, what Jesus was condemning was a rigid observation of religious requirements in the Law, while ignoring the greater parts.  Jesus didn't say Pharisees were not to keep the law (See Matt 23:23, "these you should have done, without neglecting the others.")

The idea of Qorban/Corban which Jesus condemned involved the donation of the individual's wealth to the Temple (sort of like a living trust today) after his death, and claiming that because the man did this, he was not obligated to use his wealth to support his parents in their need.  Thus for the claim that Qorban negated the obligation of the son to the parents was to make a human tradition go against the command of God.

When one considers this, one sees that the objection to Catholic disciplines and practices as being condemned by Christ by the very fact they are small-t traditions is to miss the point.  He did not condemn the authority of the religious authorities to make regulations on the governing of worship (See Matt 23:2-3), but on the wrong they did in thinking their laws were equal to the law of God, and could even circumvent the laws of God.

A Look at Tradition (παραδόσεις): Meaning and the Fallacy of Equivocation

There is a logical issue here over equivocation: Assuming a different meaning than the speaker intends.  Tradition has a range of meanings going from mere customs to Sacred Doctrine.  One needs to look at what Jesus meant by παραδόσεις and compare what He denounced to the Catholic use of the word.

Keep in mind that not all uses of a word in Scripture hold the same context.  Jesus is described as the Lion of Judah (Rev. 5:5).  Satan is described as a 'roaring lion" looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8).  In one sense, the use of lion is used in a dangerous sense.  In another in a majestic sense (and yes, it is the same word in Greek: λεων [leōn]).  Likewise, Scripture speaks of tradition in numerous ways.

Let us not forget that St. Paul has also invoked Tradition.  In 2 Thessalonians 2, he says:

^15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Oops.  Either Paul is contradicting Jesus, or else what Paul is praising is not what Jesus is condemning.  Paul is speaking as an Apostle sent to take the teachings of Christ to the world.  We believe he had authority.

So let's look at the word for tradition.

The word Paul uses is παραδόσεις (paradoseis) which means:

"that which is handed down or bequeathed, tradition, doctrine, teaching"

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon. "With a revised supplement, 1996." (Rev. and augm. throughout) (1309). Oxford; New York: Clarendon Press; Oxford University Press.

Meanwhile, the word Jesus uses is… the same word.  The phrase he uses is τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν (Tēn paradosin umōn), literally "the tradition of you (Second Person plural)."

Paul also speaks favorably of traditions in 1 Cor 11:2, saying "I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions [παραδόσεις], just as I handed them on to you."

He speaks of these traditions in 2 Thessalonians 3:6 when he says "We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition [παράδοσιν] they received from us. "

Thus the difference between Paul's παραδόσεις and the Pharisees' παραδόσεις is the authority they have to make it binding and whether or not it contradicts God's law.  The Pharisees traditions are self created laws which go against God's laws and indeed allow one to get around God's commands.

Now, while there are disputes about which Church is the Church Christ established, we do know that the Church created by Christ did have the power to bind and loose (see Matt 16:19 and Matthew 18:18), that it spoke with His authority and to reject the Church was to reject Him (See Matthew 18:17, Luke 10:16).

Tradition and the Catholic Church

This seems to be the underlying dispute over the Catholic traditions that certain Protestants label as condemned, the denial that the Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus established.  One can see a certain logic in their objection.  If the Catholic Church does not have the authority which it claims, then yes, any traditions they make binding would be condemnable as the traditions of the Pharisees which Christ denounced

However, if the Catholic Church does have this authority, if it is the Church established by Christ, then she does have the authority to bind and to loose with the authority Paul invokes when writing to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians.

Now this article is not the place to delve into the arguments on what the true Church is.  Anyone who has read this blog for any length of time knows I remain in the Catholic Church because I believe she is the Church established by Christ.  Anyone who is interested can look at our Catechism to see what we believe and why, and investigate many defenses of the Church.

However, it is not enough to say "I don't believe the Catholic Church is the Church created by Christ."  What do you believe Christ's Church is?  Do you consider its teachings and interpretations of Scripture binding?  If so, you are invoking Tradition, even if you claim you interpret the Bible through the Bible.

Conclusion

Before one can condemn the Church teaching on account of a word in Scripture, one has to assess the meaning of the word within context, and be certain that the meaning and intent is the same.  Otherwise, one could create all sorts of alleged "contradictions" in Scripture and turn the Inspired Word of God into a partisan tool to advocate a position or bash another based on one's own personal reading.

The Most Famous Pope Who Never Lived: Debunked Myth of Pope Joan to be a Movie

Source: Pope Joan film sparks Roman Catholic Church row - Telegraph

So, the long debunked myth of "Pope Joan" is to be made into a movie, it seems.  The claim is that sometime during the 9th or 10th century, a woman disguised herself as a man and rose up in the ranks of the Church hierarchy, becoming Pope and eventually discovered when she gave birth while travelling through the streets of Rome.

The List of Popes as Counter-Evidence

The problem is, despite claims to the contrary, the popes of this time period were known:

• St. Leo III (795-816)
• Stephen V (816-17)
• St. Paschal I (817-24)
• Eugene II (824-27)
• Valentine (827)
• Gregory IV (827-44)
• Sergius II (844-47) Opposed by John, antipope (855)
• St. Leo IV (847-55)
• Benedict III (855-58) Opposed by Anastasius, antipope (855)
• St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
• Adrian II (867-72)
• John VIII (872-82)
• Marinus I (882-84)
• St. Adrian III (884-85)
• Stephen VI (885-91)
• Formosus (891-96)
• Boniface VI (896)
• Stephen VII (896-97)
• Romanus (897)
• Theodore II (897)
• John IX (898-900)
• Benedict IV (900-03)
• Leo V (903) Opposed by Christopher, antipope (903-904)
• Sergius III (904-11)
• Anastasius III (911-13)
• Lando (913-14)
• John X (914-28)
• Leo VI (928)
• Stephen VIII (929-31)
• John XI (931-35)
• Leo VII (936-39)
• Stephen IX (939-42)
• Marinus II (942-46)
• Agapetus II (946-55)
• John XII (955-63)
• Leo VIII (963-64)
• Benedict V (964)
• John XIII (965-72)
• Benedict VI (973-74)
• Benedict VII (974-83) Benedict and John XIV were opposed by Boniface VII, antipope (974; 984-985)
• John XIV (983-84)
• John XV (985-96)
• Gregory V (996-99) Opposed by John XVI, antipope (997-998)
• Sylvester II (999-1003)

There were a few brief interregnums (897-898, 928-929, 935-936, 964-965, 972-973, 984-985).  Could we say she was Pope during one of these times?  No.  Reading JND Kelly (an Anglican) in his work, The Oxford Dictionary of Popes, we see the dates were of a short duration.

• The interregnum of 897-898 was from the death of Theodore II in November to the election of John IX in January
• The Interregnum of 928-929 seems to be a matter of a few days (Kelly indicates that actually there was no interregnum between Leo VI and Stephen VII)
• The interregnum of 935-936 was from the death of John XI in December 935 to the election of Leo VII in January 936
• The interregnum of 964-965 involved an emperor exiling Benedict V in 964.  When Benedict V died in 965, John XIII was elected.  There was no room for a Pope Joan in this time.  Benedict V was the lawful pope at this time.
• The interregnum of 972-973 was from September 962 (Pope John XII) until January 973 (Benedict VI)
• The interregnum of 984-985 was the first one in this period which can be called "extended" lasting from August 984 (John XIV) to August 985 (John XV).  During this time, there was an antipope who had imprisoned and starved Pope John XIV to death.  The election of a new Pope could not take place until the antipope (so-called Boniface VII) died.

So as we can see, there were no periods of known gaps between popes which we cannot account for.

The Claims of when "Pope Joan" existed can not be verified

The documents from which dates are given when "Pope Joan" was supposed to have reigned, have one problem: We know the history and the Popes when she was supposed to reign.  The work The Chronicles of Popes and Emperors by Martin of Troppau (died 1297) claims that Pope Joan, as "John Anglicus" succeeded Leo IV (died 855) and reigned 2 years, 7 months, 4 days.  This would mean her reign would be approximately 855-858.

There is a problem however.  The successor to Leo IV was Benedict II, who was known to be elected on September 29th 855.  During part of his reign, he was imprisoned by the antipope Anastasius for about six months in 855.  We have historical mentioning of him in the supposed period where "Joan" was supposed to reign.  So the problem is: No space for a "Pope Joan" reigning 2 and a half years.

Another source, The Universal Chronicle of Metz, by Jean de Mailly written between 1240 and 1250, asserts "Joan reigned after Bl. Victor III (died Sept 16,1087).  There was a seven month interregnum between his death and the election of Bl. Urban II (March 12, 1088).  During that interregnum, we had the interference of antipope Clement III.  So again, we can account for the history of this time.

Other claims were for AD 915 (covered by the reign of Pope John XIV (AD 914-928)), and AD 1100 (the reign of Paschal II from 1099-1118)

So again… no room for a "Pope Joan."

The Appeals to Vague History, Irrelevant Authority and Arguments from Silence

Because the actual documents cite dates which can be disproved, one of the popular claims is that it happened sometime when there are scanty records.  The Telegraph claims she was "elected pontiff in 853, after the death of Pope Leo IV."  However, this date was when St. Leo IV was Pope, and we know St. Leo IV died on July 17, 855, while his successor Benedict III became Pope on Sept 29, 855.

The Telegraph goes on to say: "But proponents of the story point out that papal records are almost non-existent in the 10th and 11th centuries and that even male popes are barely documented."  "Barely" is a weasel word.  It means we may not know much about the Popes in these years, but we do know they existed and when.

It is also interesting to note that the Telegraph speaks of the 10th and 11th centuries, when the allegation of Pope Joan was cited as being in the 9th century by the same article.

The Telegraph claims: The Catholic Church has long argued that Pope Joan is not mentioned in any contemporary records and that the whole tale is a fantasy, cooked up by scheming Protestants.

No, that is not true.  Nor is it the Catholic teaching.  As I pointed out above, we know of records from the 13th century… which predated Protestantism by a bit over 200 years.  No, what the Church says about Protestantism and the legend of Pope Joan was that it was commonly invoked as a "proof" against the Papacy (See Patrick Madrid's article on why the claim would not disprove the papacy). 

Indeed, it was Protestant David Blondel (1590-1655) who debunked the story.

It is unfortunate that there was a lot of false accusations slung from both sides during the Reformation, but let's not add to them.  Now if only the Telegraph would remember this…

The Telegraph article goes on to say:

"Joan's absence from contemporary church records is only to be expected. The Roman clergymen of the day, appalled by the great deception visited upon them, would have gone to great lengths to bury all written reports of the embarrassing episode," argues the American writer Donna Woolfolk Cross, on whose novel, 'Pope Joan', the film is based

This would be an Argument from Silence fallacy.  Yes it could happen that records could be destroyed.  It could also be the case that said records never existed.  If one wants to claim records were destroyed, let us see the evidence for the claim.

(For the record, Donna Woolfolk Cross holds a BA in English and an MA in Literature and writing.  She is an author, not a historian.  She cannot be appealed to as an expert… that would be the fallacy of irrelevant authority.)

The Telegraph article holds an embarrassing contradiction as well.  Another 'expert' says:

"The Dark Ages really were the dark ages," said Peter Stanford, a former editor of the Catholic Herald and the author of 'The She-Pope: a quest for the truth behind the mystery of Pope Joan'.

"There is absolutely no certainty about who the popes of the ninth century were. We have to rely instead on medieval chronicles, written hundreds of years later."

So, which was it?  Were records burnt or merely written 300 years later?  Why can I look up every Pope on the list in the 9th century and find information on them?

(For the record, Stanford was required to resign from the Catholic Herald in 1992 on account of his collaboration with Kate Saunders on the wretched book Catholics and Sex which rejected the Church teaching on contraception.  He is a journalist, not a Historian, and has no qualifications to speak on the subject as an expert).

The Problem With the Whole Claim

We have history of the times which do account for the Popes.  We have no reports from these times that a Pope Joan actually existed.  These records of Pope Joan did not appear until the 13th century.  To give you an example of how big a difference in time this was, it would be like saying accounts first appearing in 2010 would be considered proof of events taking place in the 1600s. 

The thing about historical documents and events is we can assess them from other documents who make reference to them.  If contemporary documents mention these things we can be relatively certain that the document or event in question was known in this time.  If there is no mention, the possibilities are:

1. People were not aware of the event or document during that time
2. The event did not happen or the book did not exist at that time
3. Something happened to the documents which mentioned these things

#1 could be true of people who were completely unknown or documents which were written and fell into obscurity without attracting attention.  #2 is a reasonable conclusion, though to avoid the argument from silence we generally say "there is no evidence in favor of this claim" instead of "this never happened."  #3 would require some sort of reference to some sort of event which could explain the loss.

For example, we do know of Patristic works making reference to the writings of certain saints which no longer exist.  We do know that during the reign of Diocletian (244-311), many Christian writings were destroyed, and some other destruction of writings took place in earlier persecutions.  In these cases, we know what the titles were, and occasionally we have some fragments cited quoted by other patristic writers.  However, we can't speculate with any accuracy as to what documents which we don't even know existed might have said.

This is the problem with the "Dark Age" records being "destroyed" as a defense of the Pope Joan myth.  What destruction?  What document?  What author?

In fact, to claim "the documents must have been destroyed" is nothing more than admission that there is no documentary evidence available to evaluate.  It is speculation that such documents existed, let alone what they might have said.

If we claim that a story is true, and base the claim on a purported lack of evidence against the story, the purported lack of evidence says nothing in favor of the story.  The question is, what evidence does one have to support the claim?

Conclusion

The Pope Joan myth argues that at some undocumented time between the 9th and 11th centuries, there was a woman Pope named Joan.  It can't produce a history, a reign or any evidence which is not refuted by known history.

In other words, there is no history in the Pope Joan story, and real history which needs to be explained away before it could be taken seriously.  So why all the interest in the story now?  Cui bono?  Like the upcoming Hypatia movie, the whole thing smells of an agenda.  The Church hates women, hates sex, hates science, hates… well fill in your own word.  It's been done to death.  At any rate, the movies are not being made to present a historical story, but to bash the Church as an enemy of a favored ideology.

The current movie project is based on a work of fiction by an author who has no background in history, using sources which are secondary to create an allegation that there was a Pope who was a woman for the purpose of arguing that the Church is wrong in its teachings (See the Madrid article referenced above as to why this doesn't work).

There's only one thing the movie lacks however: Facts.